User talk:The RPG Gamer: Difference between revisions
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Thanks for finding an actual creditable English name for Giant Grrrol and I am curious how you could go into the files of NSMBU to get enemy names? Did Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench have any unique filenames and shared the same model, or is it what you would expect? I am also curious if you are able to check the files of other Mario games and rip models from them (especially Super Mario Sunshine and Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga and its 3Ds remake)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 19:11, January 7, 2023 (UTC)
:Some enemies have switchable models such as the Hanging Piranha Plants and standard Piranha Plants (piped) but the Monty Moles and Rocky Wrenches are separate (as the Venus Fire Traps and Venus Ice Traps are), as for checking the files of the other games, I will have to get the ROM's for them. I managed to get the ones for NSMB, NSMBW, and NSMBU as well as SM64DS and SM3DL but so far that's all I managed to obtain. [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 00:54, January 8, 2023 (UTC)
::Ok cool, I am also curious if you are able to rip the models from those games (especially the Monty Tank model and the 3D Land Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench model)? Also I heard people say that Monty Moles and Rocky Wrench shared the same model in New Super Mario Bros. Wii and is that true (since you said that NSMBU had them as separate models and I am pretty sure that 3D Land also had them as separate models as well)? If so, should we point out how later games made them similar, yet separate models and if not, should we point out how different their models are? Also, mind showing me a Rocky Wrench model if the goggles are removed (since no official pieces of media ever shown it)? Also could you get a Mario Strikers Charged rom so that we can rip the skeleton models for the characters (especially Monty Mole)? Sorry if this is a lot of requests, I am just super excited. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 01:37, January 8, 2023 (UTC)
:::Sorry if this comes off as a little annoying, but I was wondering if you could help answer my question soon? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:30, January 10, 2023 (UTC)
::::All good, I will see what I can do about ripping the models for each game, also yes that would be a good pointer. Yes I will get the models of the Rocky Wrench and Monty Mole you mentioned. [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 00:33, January 11, 2023 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, just tell me when you do and upload the model images to Mariopedia. Also can you help rip them Mario Sunshine Monty Mole and canon models and the skeleton Monty Mole model from Mario Strikers Charged as well and also the Tank model for Monty Tank (and possibly with the Monty Mole in it as well)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 01:47, January 11, 2023 (UTC)
::::::I was also wondering if you could try to get the full body sprite for Rocky Wrench in Paper Mario Sticker Star (either from the files or assembling the sprite from the spritesheet that can be found on [https://www.spriters-resource.com/3ds/papermariostickerstar/sheet/65001/ The Spriters Resource])? I am also wondering if you could help upload the Yoshi's Crafted World model for Monty Mole, but with the red fur texture (which I am pretty sure is meant for the big Monty Moles when they get hit once, as it is likely that both the regular and big Monty Moles share the exact same model). The model can be found [https://www.models-resource.com/nintendo_switch/yoshiscraftedworld/model/48660/ here], along with the alternate red texture. Also when did enemies like Cheep Cheeps and Mechakoopas have a line (-) in the middle of their name? Is it like something that happened in like other English versions of the game (like British and Australian)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 05:14, January 12, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I am curious if you want to make a page on Mega Monty Mole’s explosive duplicates from Mario Party: Star Rush, as I am unsure if it should be listed as an object or species (since they are bombs modeled after Mega Monty Mole), and I also can’t find any good images of the explosive duplicates as well. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:38, January 12, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Sure! I could get those sprites and models, yes we can make a page on those. Also, the Cheep Cheeps had a dash in between their names in their earlier appearances such as ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'', after ''[[Super Mario World]]'', they appeared to be used interchangeably, games such as ''[[Mario Kart: Super Circuit]]'' had it as "Cheep-Cheep" while others like ''[[Super Princess Peach]]'' had it as "Cheep Cheep", in ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]'', the "Cheep-Cheep" variation of the name was revived (and their variants also had it as well), this would be retained in ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'' however as of 2012, the "Cheep-Cheep" variation has been used significantly less, the last game to have it as "Cheep-Cheep" as of right now was ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]''. Mechakoopa is a similar case, games such as ''[[Super Mario Advance 2: Super Mario World]]'' have it as "Mecha-Koopa" while most others have it as "Mechakoopa", there are a couple that have it as "Mecha Koopa" as well. Interestingly, in their debut (''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]''), the Micro Goombas' name were spelt as "Micro-Goomba" however more recent games have omitted the dash, for some games however, the regional difference does apply however. [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 00:20, January 13, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Oh ok cool, and thanks for the explanation on the different Cheep Cheep name. Did any Monty Mole species have weird names (either regional exclusives or just really old names)? Also about my question about the Mega Monty Mole explosive duplicates? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 00:33, January 13, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::So how is progress been going on the sprites and models I requested? Also, mind helping with sources for names on some enemy species that don’t have sources yet (like the alternate names for the Chairs in Super Mario 64 and a lot of variants for some species)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 08:07, January 15, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::Sure! I could help with those, also, yes we could make pages on the Monty Mole Fakes. I also found this video that shows a plush toy of a Mega Mole that is only found in Japan, what do you think? It could sit well on the Iceberg! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXtEJBHsuv4 [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 08:16, January 15, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I actually did know about that Mega Mole plush (though it was cool it was featured in that video as well), but I could make an iceberg entry on it. Also cool that we can make a page for the Mega Monty Mole fakes, but can you make the page first and I add onto it later? Also thanks for the help with the sprites and models, just tell me when you upload my requested ones on this wiki as images (and also you could possibly upload them to The Models/Spriters Resource as well). Also, you mind helping try and rip the models and sprites for the Tower of Yikk, Fawful Express, Mawful Moles, and the Monty Bros. (especially with their jetpacks) from the giant battles in both the original and 3ds remake of Mario & Luigi: Bowser’s Inside Story (mainly the models for the former two, but I would like the sprites and models of Mawful Moles and the Monty Bros. specifically from the giant battles in the original and the remake, since there are already sprite sheets for them in the overworld)? Also mind helping get Metal Mawful Mole’s above ground sprite in the original BIS as well? Thanks for all the help. Also was there any source stating that Bonefin and Kingfin were related to Fishbone? If not, do you mind if I just consider Bonefins comparable to Fishbones instead of them being related? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 09:03, January 15, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Sorry for the late reply, sure I could help with those. As far as I can tell, no there isn't a source that states that the two are related apart from their appearance. The two being comparable would be more likely the case as one is a generic skeletal fish while the other is from space. [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 05:56, January 20, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Thanks for the info. Also what about that rumor of Rocky Wrench and Monty Mole sharing the same model (like in the NSMB games), is it true or do they have separate (but similar) models? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 06:27, January 20, 2023 (UTC)
== Stepping down ==
I didn't tell you this, but I personally decided to resign from bureaucrat role in favor of shifting focus to some of the other ''Mario''-related wikis on Miraheze (among several others that I run); for example, Yoshipedia and Wariopedia. I'll still edit here though. :) [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 13:31, January 18, 2023 (UTC)
:Thanks for telling me, it is kind of a shame though, however it's good to see that you'll still be around. Of course if you ever decide to change your mind, the position is always open for you! :) [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 22:15, January 18, 2023 (UTC)
::At least it is nice that you are still helping with this wiki. Also HM Fan, how is progress on those model and sprite requests I said? Also aren’t the Rocky Wrench and Monty Mole model separate in NSMBW, since you said they were separate in NSMBU? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:07, January 18, 2023 (UTC)
::Yoshipedia and Wariopedia are wiki spinoffs of Mariopedia [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 17:00, January 19, 2023 (UTC)
:::As for the models, I will get to those, I've been very swamped with other stuff recently but those will be done! [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 22:32, January 19, 2023 (UTC)
::::Ok cool, just tell me when you get to doing them. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:34, January 19, 2023 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for adding more sources HMFan, but do you mind quoting the page and description of an enemy name that appeared in a guidebook? I hope you don’t mind that cause it is more consist with most other pages like the [[Monty Mole]] species pages, and [[Glorpedo]]’s page. Also please put the references after either a "," or a ")" if you don’t mind. Anyways, keep up the good work and I hope this can help. Also wanna help with some Monty Mole species pages (and also make a page for Mega Monty Mole’s explosive duplicates)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:40, January 24, 2023 (UTC)
::::::No Problem! Yes I will add the page numbers, some guides mainly only include the names but I will include a fitting description as well. Sure, I could help with those too and add that page! [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 05:09, January 24, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks, also if there is no description, you can just include the page number. Wanna also include those misconceptions I listed right now as well? Also, any cool obscure Monty Mole lore facts you want me to know right now? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 05:16, January 24, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Sure! Also, yes those misconceptions will be added, as for new Monty Mole lore, I haven’t found much but I did find this funny image of an old painting (forgot what the original was) with a couple Monty Moles. I will show it off once I get back to my Mac as I am sending this from my iPhone. [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 06:54, January 24, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Ok cool, good luck with adding that stuff. Also was it like an unofficial Monty Mole painting? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 07:02, January 24, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Anyways, just checking on how the model and sprite requests have been going? Also mind giving me screenshots or describing what Rocky Wrench’s model/filename in games past NSMBW (that you can rip or look into the files of), since I am curious if any of those games even have Rocky Wrench and Monty Mole sharing the same model (and if not, it could be listed as a misconception, since some people say they share the same model)? Also mind helping finally add sources to those alternate names for the Chairs in Super Mario 64? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:39, February 7, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::As for those, it's a little tricker than I thought it would be. Also, which games in particular (like ''NSMBU''), also yes if I find that they don't share the same model it can be added to the list. And yes I will add the sources for the alternate names for the SM64 Chairs. [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 08:32, February 7, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::I was referring to games NSMBW and beyond that use 3D models and have both Rocky Wrench and Monty Mole (like NSMBW, 3D Land, and NSMBU). Also since I don’t have the models, mind writing the misconception for me? Also are you able to rip models from 3ds games (since models of Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench in 3D Land, all the Monty Mole species models in the 3ds remake of Yoshi’s Woolly World, and the Mawful Mole and Monty Mole model from the giant battles in the BIS 3ds remake would all be great to have on this wiki if you can get them)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 14:59, February 7, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Anyways, just wondering if you have an answer to my Rocky Wrench question? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:15, February 12, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Sure! I could write the misconception! :) [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 23:20, February 13, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Ok thanks. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:23, February 13, 2023 (UTC)
== permission ==
Hi, so seeing as you're a bureaucrat of Yoshi.fandom.com, would you be ok if we forked it to Yoshipedia? I suppose we could rebrand to Yoshi Wiki somewhere down the line (not sure) but I had this idea and wondered if you wanted to roll along with it. [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 20:02, February 12, 2023 (UTC)
:Sure! You can fork the content over to Yoshipedia, that sounds like a great idea in helping the expansion! :D [[User:HannahMontanaFan|HannahMontanaFan]] ([[User talk:HannahMontanaFan|talk]]) 22:08, February 12, 2023 (UTC)
::Okay, importing is done at [[mh:yoshi|Yoshipedia]]. If you join I can make you bureaucrat [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 13:21, February 13, 2023 (UTC)
:::Hey Bawitdaba, what about the pages that link to the mini-wiki Yoshipedia (like a few of the Monty Mole species pages)? Can we change that so they link to the main wiki or something? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:38, February 13, 2023 (UTC)
::::Yes [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 23:01, February 13, 2023 (UTC)
== Mario continuity ==
Hi, I was just wondering if you still think all (or most) of the official Mario media is canon (like the games, shows, books, manga, etc)? The reason I ask this is because some of those other pieces of media might have debatable continuity, but I honestly think nearly everything in the Mario series is canon and take place in the same universe (even the shows and manga). The only thing I think is not canon is likely the 1993 movie. Anyways, what do you think on the Mario continuity (also mind answer what I said on the message wall in the Mario fandom wiki as well)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 13:58, February 15, 2023 (UTC)
:I've always been confused as to how ''[[Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time]]'' fits on the timeline as some parts of the game do conflict with a couple aspects that have already been established in the franchise such as the Koopa Cruiser's appearance conflicting with Bowser describing it as his "newest weapon" in the previous game, the Goombas seen in Baby Bowser's Castle despite it being established that the Goombas were not always working for Bowser and initially lived in peace with the Mushroom Kingdom before joining Bowser (their appearance in Baby Bowser's Castle suggests that they were always minions of Bowser despite other sources saying otherwise), the game also shows the Baby Mario Bros. living in the Mushroom Kingdom (and that they would have playdates with Baby Peach) despite their origin story stating that they originally lived in Brooklyn before stumbling upon a [[Warp Pipe]] leading to the Mushroom Kingdom where they currently reside, the SMB Instruction Booklet also states that Bowser kidnapped Peach as she was the only one who could undo his curse and later games, he just kidnaps her to take over the Mushroom Kingdom the old fashioned way but in ''PIT'', he attempts to kidnap her as a baby which kind of leaves some room for confusion.
But yeah, it's never officially been established what's canon and what's not so it's honestly safe to say that everything's canon and coexists together, I would say everything takes place in the same universe. There is also no official ''Mario'' timeline so that's another thing, to me (and this would probably be the safest way to assume it) each game takes place on the year it was released (for example, ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' was released in 2009 so it would take place in 2009). [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 00:13, February 16, 2023 (UTC)
:Yeah that is how I feel about the Mario timeline as well, also want to rant about all the "Evolution of Monty Mole/Rocky Wrench (A.K.A Monty Mole/Rocky Wrench history)" videos that we can find? I was especially thinking of ranting on Dr. Wily’s and BowserPower’s Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench videos to show the mistakes they made. Also what do you think about [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvAXnz-jJuY this video] that talked about Monty Mole in Yoshi’s Crafted World. Personally, there is nothing really extremely wrong with it (since it didn’t make any stupid Undergrunt misconceptions), but I did have a few things to point out. First, it kind of implies that Monty Moles were the first to attack Yoshi, but considering that Yoshi constantly eats Monty Moles, it is likely that the Monty Moles hate Yoshi due to them constantly eating their species (since Yoshis are basically their main predator, so them attacking Yoshi is kind of self defense). Second, the history part of the video kind of treated Rocky Wrench as just a slightly different regular Monty Mole, when in-reality, Rocky Wrench is a relative of Monty Mole that came before them (also he accidentally got the date wrong for SMB3, as he said it came out in 1990, when it actually came out two years prior in 1988). I think it is evident that Rocky Wrenches are just a relative to Monty Mole and not just a weird alter ego of them, since they coexist in several games (including both remakes of SMB3 ironically enough and several games after Rocky Wrench’s redesign). Anyways, what do you think about that video, and also could we start the rant for the other far worse Monty Mole/Rocky Wrench history videos (and which one is your least favorite)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 00:51, February 16, 2023 (UTC)
::Also can you upload the skeleton Monty Mole model from Mario Strikers Charged to this wiki, and also the goggleless Rocky Wrench models to use in the Rocky Wrench having the same model as Monty Mole misconception? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:32, February 16, 2023 (UTC)
:::Sure we can rant about those, you can start. Also, yeah that was a slight error as the Yoshis are the ones that eat the Monty Moles, typically from what I see, the Monty Moles attack those that invade their territories (as seen in the ''Mario Party DS'' minigame [[Mole Thrill]] where they chase the tiny players (possibly to eat them, who knows)). Personally, I've seen worse videos that that, that one was relatively decent. my least favorite video would've been Dr. Wily's one also, I saw this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u23NkbLEMRI here], Number 5 just screams "Mario is Mental", I could go on a rant about that if you'd like. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 12:50, February 18, 2023 (UTC)
::::Yeah the video was pretty decent compared to other crap like Dr. Wily’s bad video. Also it was said in like a DS pocket guide made by Prima Games that the Monty Mole in Mole Thrill is trying to eat the players (presumably because the Monty Mole probably thinks the players are food, due to their shrunken size). Also yeah, the Monty Moles do seem to mainly attack invaders of their territory and the video was likely just trying to slightly demonize them to make them seem like they purposefully torment Yoshis, when in reality the Monty Moles only attack Yoshi due to them constantly eating Monty Moles and basically being their number one predator. Another piece of evidence I had to support the claim you had, is that in the Nintendo Super Secret card it says that all moles (including Monty Moles) hate plumbers due to their leaks in the pipes causing muck to be filled in their tunnels (which is likely why Monty Moles attack Mario and Luigi on sight, due to them being plumbers and could also explain why the Partners in Time being more friendly, since plumbing didn’t exist back then). Anyways, tell me what you think about the Monty Mole attacking intruders theory, cause I think it is pretty good. Anyways, yeah I think you should start the rants (both the Monty Mole history one and the Mario disturbing moments one). Honestly, the moments they chose in that video pale in comparison to actually dark moments like what happens with the Mega Moles in Dinosaur Dilemma and Flown the Koopa, and some of the stuff seen in the Mario manga (such as the dark implications, the ghosts of Mario’s enemies torturing Mario in hell for what he did to them, random inappropriate Monty Mole moments in Super Mario 4koma Manga Theater, etc). You agree a lot of the "disturbing" moments chosen in these videos are just kind of surface level? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 15:54, February 18, 2023 (UTC)
:::::Also what do you think of the comments I said on your Mario is Mental post (specifically these [https://mario.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:NewSuperMarioBrosFan/Why_Mario_is_NOT_Mental_-_Part_2|these ones])? I agree with everything else about what you said besides the enemy part (which I will admit, MatPat was wrong in a lot of areas in that section, but Mario murdering enemies isn’t completely innocent, and just because the other characters do it doesn’t make it excusable for them either. I added some of my own counter evidence if you want to see it). [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 21:57, February 18, 2023 (UTC)
::::::You did bring up some valid points, while that is true I was trying to say that he's definitely not up there with like The Joker or Hannibal Lecter, it's still not innocent either. The video I showed you however, the guy did bring up some valid points, I was trying to say the points he provided in Number 5 could be used for literally any video game (although I do agree with the part on Whacka (despite hitting him being optional), that's often why I never hit him whenever I play ''PMTTYD'' (I just can't do it)). Other than that, the video was decent. Also, the link you provided didn't link to the blog post. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 22:41, February 20, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah I didn’t say that Mario was on the same level as actual serial killers, but he is certainly a murderer and the ghosts of the enemies he killed in the past hating him and Mario going to hell that one time further proves my point. I will admit, Mario isn’t a complete heartless monster, and he has done a few good things, but that doesn’t excuse all the murders he commits on occasions. Someone like Sonic on the other hand is an absolute heartless monster as he has absolutely zero remorse for the badniks he murders, barely gives a crap about the animals he saves (and he can literally feed the animals to Chao in Sonic Adventure), literally admits to enjoying destroying badniks and treating them nothing like toys (especially later on), and in Sonic Prime (which is canon by the way), SONIC LITERALLY DESTROYS THE ENTRIE UNIVERSE BECAUSE OF HIM BEING AN EGOTISTICAL MANIAC AND BASICALLY KILLING EVERYONE IN HIS MAIN UNIVERSE, AND DESPITE THIS HE IS NOT PUNISHED WHATSOEVER AND THE SHOW TRIES SO HADD TO MAKE YOU FEEL SYMPATHY FOR HIM. In Sonic the Comic (and most British media), Sonic literally doesn’t care about anyone else but himself and loving to destroy badniks and insulting them just to boost his ego. Sonic nearly killed an innocent Roller in issue 75 and made incredibly false statements about the badniks just to justify his horrible atrocities, and in issue 99-100, Sonic literally sends a black asteroid to Mobius so that the explosion it causes could destroy every single robot on the planet (which is literally on par with someone intentionally sending the metro to kill all the dinosaurs). Yeah Mario has done horrible things, but Sonic is honestly a heartless monster who only cares about himself and murdering countless robot lives and is genuinely an actual horrible person. At least with Mario, he never boasts about all the enemies he murdered in the past, and he at least feels a little remorse for when he kills them. Meanwhile, Sonic just loves destroying robots and making unfunny remarks because he is an actual psychopath. Sorry for that long rant, I just wanted to explain why I hated Sonic so much and why I think he is an absolute irredeemable monster. Do you mind checking Dr. Wily’s other enemy history videos and explaining anything he got right or wrong in it (though can you do the Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench ones first, since I want to hear your take on those videos (I can explain my reasonings after yours though, regarding anything you missed or stuff I wanted to add in))? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:25, February 20, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Anyways, what is your take on the whole stupid Undergrunt misconception? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 06:35, February 24, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Sorry for the late reply, yeah Sonic is very brutal and heartless, heck he's even a jerk to Amy Rose half the time. Donkey Kong has also had his fair share of brutal moments like in ''[[Donkey Kong Country Returns]]'' where he brutally beats the bosses to get the final blow presumably killing them. The worst part about this is all the game's bosses (except the final boss) aren't inherently evil but they've been hypnotized and possessed by the Tiki Ghosts into destroying the Kongs. The brutalness fully resides with Mole Miner Max, Mangoruby, and Thugly which just before DK scores the final blow, their eyes can be seen swirling meaning that they're hypnosis is wearing off (thereby regaining sense) but DK still manages to get the finishing blow on the boss especially with how brutally he beats Mole Miner Max in World 4. As for the Undergrunt misconception, they're 100% not Monty Moles nor are they even related. I mean it was bad enough the Super Mario Wiki initially stated that they're the same species but prior to 2010, they literally claimed that [https://web.archive.org/web/20090221111330/www.mariowiki.com/Monty_Mole Undergrunts ARE Monty Moles] (not a sub-species, not a relative but an actual Monty Mole redesign) despite there being no indication that they're the same (not even the Japanese names match), Nintendo Power, Prima, and even the game itself simply referred to them as Moles (they weren't given the name "Undergrunt" until ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'' although [[Undergrunt Gunner]] was used in the first game). I mean for the Bats, it is possible that at one stage they were intended to be Swoopers given the Japanese name (much like how the SMG Bullet Bills were called Cosmic Bullet Bills in the beta but became regular Bullet Bills in the final build) but became a separate species in the final build, the Undergrunts share no design similarities to the Monty Mole, everything down from the eyes to the core design and behavior, nothing matches, to think that they say that Undergrunts are related to Monty Moles yet treat the Rocky Wrenches (a true relative of the Monty Moles) as a completely separate species is just... WHAT?! [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 09:27, February 24, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Yeah Sonic is a genuine monster, and I hate how both the series and fans try to justify his horrible actions and treat them as heroic (especially with the comics). I understand if the badniks were just enemies and nothing else, Sonic would have probably been like around Mario levels of evil, but the fact that the badniks have been shown to be sentient, that Sonic barely cares about the animals he "saves," Sonic insulting his own friends and treating himself and his horrible actions as heroic, and literally getting actual amusement and enjoyment from his robot destruction is the reason why I think Sonic is genuinely one of the most evil video game characters out there. As for what you said about Donkey Kong, yeah it is pretty brutal how Donkey Kong still kills the bosses without any remorse, even when they were regaining their conscience. I think the same applies for the origami enemies in Origami King, as Mario just mercilessly kills them, despite them only attacking Mario since they were brainwashed by King Olly. The worst part is that the origami enemies still have sentience (as a few cutscenes show some of the origami enemies speaking regular dialogue and them being aware of their surroundings), so Mario is just killing these brainwashed enemies instead of actually helping them. To a degree, this also kind of applies with the Fawful enemies in BIS, but this more applies with Bowser (especially considering how he had no remorse for killing the Monty Bros. which were his former employees). What do you think about these examples? Yeah I absolutely agree with what you said about the Undergrunts, they do not even have anything in common with the Monty Mole species, so it is likely that they were just a one-off mole enemy species meant for the Galaxy games and nothing else. Also, can we rant about how the other Dr. Wily enemy history videos are extremely bad and poorly researched (but can we start with the Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench videos, and then the other enemy history videos)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 10:06, February 24, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Also, what do you think of Monty Mole’s appearance in Robot Chicken (Its covered on the Monty Mole page on this wiki)? Also, someone suggested that Metal Mawful Mole might possibly be robots that are exact replicas of regular Mawful Moles. What do you think about this theory? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 06:10, February 27, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::I think the examples you provided were pretty solid, sure we can rant about those Dr. Wily videos, you can start. I haven't seen the Monty Mole's appearance in Robot Chicken but I will check it out, that's kind of strange, I always pictured the Metal Mawful Moles being more similar to how Metal Mario is. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 21:40, February 27, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I was hoping you could start the Dr. Wily rant, since I wanted to hear your perspective on the videos first (including the Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench one). However, I would likely help with the rant after I hear what you said. Also, I am unsure if Metal Mawful Moles were meant to be robot recreations of Mawful Moles, or just Mawful Moles that Fawful made to be much stronger. Tell me what you think? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:40, February 27, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Also, can you tell me all the issues and wrong information you can find in [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNUc8jc_qCA this video] (since I want to see how you think on what this video said about Monty Mole, no offense to the person who made the video of course)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:58, February 28, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::I could find a couple errors in the video, a few of these include him treating the Monty Mole from ''Super Mario Sunshine'' as a separate species although most likely the case is as far as I can tell, that was a redesign for the Monty Moles in said game (similar to how [[Bob-omb]]s look different as well), he merely states that Mega Monty Mole is just a stronger version of the regular Monty Mole whilst ignoring the abilities he demonstrates in his boss battles, he even states that Mawful Moles are brainwashed Monty Moles despite them most likely being a creation of Fawful or a different (Fawful-like) species (as the status is referred to as "Fawfulization") entirely especially as we see the Monty Bros. who were most likely brainwashed but didn't become Mawful Moles, additionally, he even lists Major Burrows as a Monty Mole despite him not being a Monty Mole but rather an Undergrunt (which aren't even related to Monty Moles). [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 01:11, March 1, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Yeah, I don’t get why he treated the Mario Sunshine Monty Mole as a different variant, since it was clearly just a redesign (Super Mario-kun volume 31 even kept the Monty Mole with the modern design from the manga, while just keeping their hat). Mega Monty Mole is clearly unique too, as he has his own hot air balloon, can throw bombs, and even has explosive duplicates. Was the video implying that Mega Monty Mole was on the same level as big Monty Mole. I am pretty sure Mawful Moles (and Metal Mawful Moles) are likely just a variant of Monty Mole that Fawful created to be his minions. Also what you said about the Monty Bros. being brainwashed is partially wrong, as it is stated by the dialogue of the Monty Bros. that they were basically bribed by Fawful to join his company and sell Project K to him so that they can get a lot of money. And finally, we already know why stating Major Burrows there is just extremely stupid (since Major Burrows isn’t even a Monty Mole species). As for my opinion on Dr. Wily’s bad Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench video, I still want to hear your opinion first, and then I will say how I feel. As for other things, do you think Monty Mole will appear in that upcoming Mario movie trailer, and do you mind telling me if Monty Mole did or didn’t appear in that trailer? Another thing, could you help make that Rocky Wrench model misconception and provide images as well? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 05:45, March 1, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Also, you agree that people saying that the Badniks from Sonic are "non-sentient" (which is mostly said by the Sonic News Network users and most of the IDW pages for the Badniks) is on par with the dumb enlarged enemy merges that the Super Mario Wiki does (since it is a wrong statement that the wiki refuses to correct due to bias)? Also, I was wondering if you can see if the other Dr. Wily enemy history videos have extreme errors like the Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench ones (and also I want to hear your perspective on those two videos as well)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:51, March 1, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::I agree that it's definitely on par with that, it's almost as if they're making Sonic seem less bad than he really is (when we know he is actually pretty darn bad (probably Pure Evil but I'm not too sure)). Also, I checked out the Dr. Wily's video. In the opening monologue with the slideshow, he makes his first major mistake by including Major Burrows on the slideshow of Monty Moles (he even includes the Monty Mole from ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'' too despite not being different), worst of all, he includes the Undergrunt Gunner here as well. Thankfully he doesn't mention anything about Undergrunts being related to Monty Moles in the video (aside from the slideshow at the beginning) however [[:Image:Undergrunt Comment.png|someone in the comments]] did claim that he forgot the mention the Undergrunts in the video. As for the Rocky Wrench video, in the SMB3 chapter, he laughably claims that because the Rocky Wrenches have shells like the Koopas, that Rocky Wrenches must be related in some way despite no official indication that Rocky Wrenches are Koopas. It's only been stated that they were some sort of turtle-mole hybrid but not a Koopa. For the SMG part, I could not've cringed harder if I tried. He outright claims that the Rocky Wrenches "look different" in this game once again stating that they're a full mole rather than a Koopa (despite them never being Koopas at all). He also claims that this is a major appearance and a huge return for the Rocky Wrench and makes absolutely no mention that it is a completely unrelated species that was most likely inspired by the Rocky Wrench, he even claims that SM3DL is their SECOND 3D appearance due to his SMG misconception with the Montys also get a load of these comments on the Rocky Wrench video, [[:Image:Rocky Wrench Comment 1.png|the first got one thing wrong and the other partially right]] and [[:Image:Rocky Wrench Comments 2.png|for the second batch of comments]], tell me what you think. Yeah we could rant about his other evolution videos too. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 09:59, March 2, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::The funniest part about the badniks being "mindless drones" in IDW misconception was that IT WAS LITERALLY DEBUNKED IN ISSUE 58, since the badniks actually showed a stressed emotion right before they get killed (most prominently the group of Caterkillers and Batbrains that Sonic brutally murders). Funny enough, that same issue has one of the sadistic characters (Lanion) claim that the badniks "destroyed her home," but it just shows the Death Crab walking past her and not even noticing her at all. I am pretty sure she just lied about this claim so that she can make the badniks seem more evil (even though she is the evil one, and same goes with most of Sonics allies). I am pretty sure this badniks not being sentient thing was only made to justify Sonic’s sadistic atrocities and nothing else. Also, as someone who has seen what Sonic does in both the games and comics, I can agree that (especially in the comics) Sonic is pure evil, as he barely takes anything seriously and trust everything as a sick twisted game, and he only cares about himself and committing mass genocide against the badniks (he barely even cares about the animals he "saves," as shown in the Chao Garden from Sonic Adventure). As for my input for Dr. Wily’s videos, all of what you said is true (including the Rocky Wrench Koopa thing, which I totally agree with you on), but there were some things you did miss out. Something I hate about both of the videos is the absolutely terrible footage seen in the older games (cause it is blurry and stretched). For the Monty Mole video, something interesting was that the video actually showed Ragumo in the opening slideshow (making it one of the only Monty Mole species history videos to do this), which makes the inclusion of Major Burrows and the Undergrunt Gunner even more stupid, as he clearly had to have looked at the Monty Mole species list to include Ragumo (since they are pretty obscure), and I did check on if the Super Mario Wiki treated the Undergrunts as Monty Mole species during this time period (and sure enough it didn’t). I really have no idea where Dr. Wily is getting his research from (probably just skimming through the main series appearances and calling it a day), but the fact he even knew Ragumo was a relative to Monty Mole shows that he did do some research, so I don’t get why he made the error. That opening slideshow I am also pretty sure forgot to include Monty Mole variants from the spinoffs (such as Mawful Moles), which is likely because of laziness. Speaking of which, Dr. Wily kind of just pretends the spinoffs are not as important and barely mentions them in his videos (besides like a very brief mention towards the end). The Monty Mole video does thankfully not have a Mario Galaxy section (which would have likely been extremely cringe), but he does skim past the games after New Super Mario Bros. Wii and just vaguely says that they have Monty Moles acting like their past (which is kind of true for some of the games, but not all of them like with 3D Land). Speaking of which, he basically just skims over 3D Land by making a Rick and Morty joke with Morty Mole (which is ironic, since Rick and Morty came after Super Mario 3D Land) and that was about it. He didn’t even really go in-detail about Morty Mole or Monty Mole’s behavior, even though the latter actually has a unique behavior in 3D Land which is worth mentioning. He also just skims past New Super Mario Bros. U and Super Mario Maker (besides a very brief mention at the end for the former), despite that just kind of defeating the purpose of a history video if he just skipped random appearances (which is more stupid since Super Mario Maker was shown in the Rocky Wrench video if I remember correctly). In the brief spinoff mentioning part, he had Mario & Luigi: Dream Team as the Mario & Luigi game representative. While that game did have Monty Moles, it was only like a very minor appearance in the secret Bowser Jr. boss, so it was weird how that game was the one that was meant to represent their Mario & Luigi appearances (I would have chosen BIS instead, since that game had a more major role for the Monty Mole species than Dream Team). He also had the first Mario Party in that spinoff section, despite Monty Moles not even appearing in the Mario Party series until Mario Party 3 (and appearing in every single subsequent Mario Party (including the handheld ones) starting with Mario Party 5). At the end of the video, he also shows three games that "Monty Moles additionally appeared in" (being New Super Mario Bros. U, Super Mario Galaxy, and Super Mario 3D World). Only New Super Mario Bros. U had Monty Moles, and we already know why Super Mario Galaxy has no Monty Moles. But my real question is why Super Mario 3D World was included there? Super Mario 3D World didn’t even have any mole species at all (not even an unrelated one like the Mario Galaxy games), so I have no idea why the hell Dr. Wily included 3D World to begin with. My best guess was that he just blindly assumed Monty Moles were in that game because they appeared in 3D Land, but that is still a stupid reason. I also seen this misconception being done with Rocky Wrench, and it makes just as little sense. The Rocky Wrench video you were pretty spot on with. Like, Rocky Wrenches being called turtles doesn’t automatically make them Koopas (cause not every turtle in the Mario series is a Koopa), it just likely means that they could be turtles unrelated to Koopas. Also Rocky Wrenches being moles is true, as it was stated in the 3D Land Prima Guide that they are moles. I think that it is very likely that Rocky Wrenches are both moles and turtles, but not Koopas (because being a turtle doesn’t automatically make you a Koopa, it would be like if someone said every mole in the Mario series was related to Monty Mole). Yeah I agree the Super Mario Galaxy section was extremely cringe worthy and hard to watch, as it was basically Dr. Wily treating SMG Monty as 100% the exact same as Rocky Wrench with no differences whatsoever (even with stupid claims that they are "space engineers," which is stupid since Rocky Wrenches never even appeared in space as of 2023), despite that not being true at all. I also remembered him making a brief remark that the SMG Montys were a different species, but it was like one sentence and every part of that video tried to make it out like SMG Monty was 100% a Rocky Wrench (and as someone who researches Monty Mole lore, the part where he said Super Mario Galaxy was a "major role" for Rocky Wrench genuinely made me cringe the first time I saw it (and it still does make me cringe)). He also treats the airships returning in Mario Galaxy like it 100% means Rocky Wrenches came back in that game to be in them, which is stupid since Rocky Wrench isn’t even in Mario Galaxy, and the SMG Montys (which he treats like they are 100% Rocky Wrenches) never even appear in any of the airship levels at all, so even if they were Rocky Wrenches (which they obviously aren’t), his claim doesn’t even mean anything, as the ""Rocky Wrenches"" never are seen with the airships. Dr. Wily also treats Mario Kart DS as just some small minor role he throws at the end of the video, which is stupid stance that game was literally Rocky Wrench’s first appearance in a (non-remake) since like 1992. Yet Mario Kart DS is treated as this insignificant game, while Super Mario Galaxy was treated as this "major appearance and return for Rocky Wrench" (which even for the main series is false, since New Super Mario Bros. Wii was clearly the actual proper return for Rocky Wrench, since it gave them their current design and attack patterns that they would keep since). Yeah, we could rant about the other Dr. Wily history videos (though I do not hate Dr. Wily as a person, I just think these vidoes were pretty poorly made, especially that abysmal Rocky Wrench video). Also, mind uploading the goggless Rocky Wrench models and the skeleton Monty Mole model from Mario Strikers Charged soon? One additional thing was me wondering if we could do a rant on this old website (which haven’t been updated since 2013) called [https://www.mariomonsters.com/ Mario Monsters], and talk about the wrong stuff it said on the Monty Mole species pages (believe me, there is a lot, and it is insanely cringe worthy). [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:38, March 2, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::Good news, I removed most of the inaccurate personality sections from most of the IDW Badnik pages (mainly the ones that said that they were "mindless drones" with no proof whatsoever, which was like most of them). You agree that misconception was really dumb, and was like on par with some of the dumb stuff the Super Mario Wiki did (like merging the enlarged enemies)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 18:47, March 5, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::Nice work! That is a major misconception that is quite on par with the merges the Super Mario Wiki did, I remember reading the Mario Monsters site years ago, they seem to specialize in fanart. The Monty Mole page is a total mess because it claims that the Undergrunts are Monty Moles without considering anything else, like it's not a mere redesign, they two separate Mole species, it's even worse with Rocky Wrench because they again claim that the Montys are Rocky Wrenches, it even calls the Podoboos "Podobos" (missing the second "o" at the end), they claim that Pyrospheres are Podoboos despite them factually being a stronger variant of them in SMRPG, the site even claims that the "Podoboo" spelling actually debuted in ''[[Super Princess Peach]]'' when it was actually in ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'' (this being because they claim it was spelt as "Podobo" before then) although I will admit the theory they came up with about the eyed Podoboos being a more advanced variation of them is a clever one at that. On the Mecha-Chomp sector, there is a lot of unconfirmed information as they were most likely created by Cackletta (or even Fawful) to aid them in their conquest, also, the Woohoo Hooniversity wasn't closed as it can be accessed at anytime after it is completed (unlike some other areas like Guffawha Ruins). There are more, if you want, I could list them. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 22:43, March 5, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::Thanks for complimenting my work on me removing that cringe badnik misconception. As for some errors that the Mario Monsters page had that I noticed, the Super Mario Sunshine Monty Moles weirdly have their own page called "Mole Cannon" (which isn’t an official name, but whatever). The page also says that the cannons are related to Bob-ombs and Blasters (the Bullet Bill cannons), which is weird since the cannons have nothing to do with Bob-ombs (besides the Monty Mole throwing them), and it is not really confirmed if they are related to Bill Blasters or not. As for the Monty Mole page, I find it weird how Monty Moles are noted to being rodents (even in some official media), despite moles irl not being rodents. The Super Mario Sunshine section calls the cannon a "tank" (despite it not being a tank), and the page heavily implies that Super Mario 64 DS (along with Yoshi’s Touch & Go) has a similar behavior for Monty Mole as Super Mario World, despite Monty Moles in Super Mario 64 DS attacking the exact same as the original Mario 64 (and not Super Mario World). The Mario Galaxy section is completely false, and the page literally admits that the Undergrunts (which they confuse for Monty Moles) are much more different, both visually and functionally (which basically proves that they aren’t Monty Moles). Not to mention how games like Mario Strikers Charged and Mario Party DS (which are referenced in the cameo appearances) came out the same year as Mario Galaxy, and those games have standard Monty Moles, which further proves that Galaxy just had a different unrelated Mole species. The cameo appearances thing also misses several games (like a good chunk of the Mario Party games and literally every Mario Kart game), not to mention how they list Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (which is generically referred to as Mario & Luigi here) in the cameo appearances, despite that game featuring a different species of Monty Mole named Presenter (and Monty Moles themselves only appeared in the remake as a replacement for the Presenters, and not the original game). Speaking of the cameo appearances, a lot of those games listed there had pretty notable roles for Monty Mole (like them being playable in Mario Superstar Baseball and Mario Strikers Charged for example). The worst offender is New Super Mario Bros, which not only is a main series title, but the game LITERALLY HAS BOTH A [[Monty Tank|MONTY MOLE BOSS]] AND [[Whack-a-Monty|MINIGAME THAT HAS MONTY MOLES AS THE MAIN FOCUS]], yet New Super Mario Bros. is treated as just a "minor cameo," while Super Mario Galaxy is treated as a more important role (despite the Monty Mole species never appearing in Mario Galaxy period). The Major Burrows page is honestly just repulsive. Not only does it treat Major Burrows as a "huge Monty Mole" (despite that obviously not being true), but it goes as far as to imply that Major Burrows is the leader of the Monty Moles (which is also false, as it was literally disproven by the early Sticker Star beta and the fact Major Burrows never appeared outside of Mario Galaxy (besides the Super Mario-kun adaptation)). For some reason, the Undergrunt Gunner page treats Undergrunt Gunner as a close relative to Major Burrows, despite Undergrunt Gunner clearly just being a variant of Undergrunt. Also the irony with Undergrunt Gunner is that they are clearly called an Undergrunt, yet the Major Burrows and Monty Mole pages insist that the Undergrunts are 100% Monty Moles. The Mega Mole page says that they were outcasted by Monty Moles for their large size, despite that never being shown or even implied in any media Mega Mole appeared in (and in the manga, this is nowhere near the case, as the manga has several moments of both Mega Moles and Monty Moles interacting just fine). What further disproves this is that many Japanese sources state that Mega Moles are the bosses of Monty Moles, which shows that they are in a higher position and not an outcast (not to mention other enlarged Monty Mole species exist like big Monty Moles and Morty Moles). And now, we get to the worst page (from what I seen), the Rocky Wrench one. Where do I even begin? First of all, the page blames Rocky Wrenches for not giving their tools to Bowser and his minions, leaving to a wrench shortage and them being kicked out. This was never really shown or implied in any pieces of media that had Rocky Wrenches in them, and it is very likely that Rocky Wrenches have a lot of wrenches that they store. Also, nobody else in the Koopa Troop uses wrenches besides Rocky Wrenches, so I don’t see why Bowser would get mad at Rocky Wrenches for doing what they do. I also highly doubt Rocky Wrenches were ever kicked out of the Koopa Troop, as really the only reason why they rarely appeared for decades was likely cause airships didn’t make a major return until Super Mario Galaxy (but they wouldn’t make a more traditional return until New Super Mario Bros. Wii), so that is likely why Rocky Wrenches never made a non-remake appearance for a very long time (with the only exception being Mario Kart DS). The page also says that Rocky Wrenches were only forgiven during the events of Mario Galaxy, which is completely untrue as Rocky Wrenches appeared in Mario Kart DS prior and still seem to work for Bowser there, not to mention how Rocky Wrenches didn’t even appear in Mario Galaxy at all). It also says that Rocky Wrenches were used in grassland areas cause they were Monty Moles, which is dumb since Rocky Wrenches came before Monty Moles (making them relatives and not the exact same), and didn't really fully resemble Monty Moles until their redesign in New Super Mario Bros. Wii (which likely came after when this page was written). Rocky Wrenches were also never shown to even be in any grassland areas (excluding the manga) until Paper Mario: The Origami King, which came way after this was written, so I have no idea where the hell they got Rocky Wrenches being in grassland areas from. The page also says Bowser gave Rocky Wrenches "wrench-making machines," which were never shown or implied to ever exist in any piece of official Mario media. The page also says Rocky Wrenches learned new tactics, but this never was shown in the games until Super Mario 3D Land (which came way after this page was written). Finally, the evolution section is complete garbage, as it treats SMG Monty as the exact same as Rocky Wrench and says that the only difference was the bandana (which they didn’t even say what the right color was, since they said the bandanna was red, when in actuality it was blue). It seems like they only saw like a singular video of SMG Monty and assumed that they were the exact same as Rocky Wrench (both visually and functionally), despite SMG Monty looking not even anywhere close to what Rocky Wrench looks like (with literally no design similarities between the two of them). It is clear as day that SMG Monty is just an entirely different unrelated mole enemy, yet the page makes them out to be the exact same as Rocky Wrench, and tries to treat Super Mario Galaxy as a massive moment for them (like the bad Dr. Wily video), despite the fact that Rocky Wrenches never appeared in Mario Galaxy at all, and the page pretending Mario Kart DS never existed just to get their point. Anyways yeah, we can do more rants on bad Mario Monsters pages. What do you think of what I said? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 00:35, March 6, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::Oh and also, what about the Super Mario 64 movie and Mario timeline video that ConnertheWaffle made? Also I am genuinely curious on your opinions on the stupid "Super Mario Bros. 3 actually being play" theory that Myamoto for some reason confirmed to be canon (despite it originally not being canon at all in the first place)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 02:19, March 7, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::No Problem! Yeah the site seems to be incredibly unreliable as it has a lot of incorrect content on it and you pretty much proved all the Monty Mole claims incorrect, I can't believe they too made that stupid misconception on Major Burrows. Those two videos were incredibly poorly done, as for that one, I honestly can't believe he made that canon. I'm not sure if he was referring to the original or the All-Stars/Advance remake of the game or both but yeah, it seems like an act of fan service to me. I have no idea why it was done, but yeah, I was thinking of ranting on those as well as another Dr. Wily video that came to mind. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 12:30, March 7, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::I agree, and the things said on the Rocky Wrench page felt like extreme speculation. Also, I felt like the play thing Super Mario Bros. 3 did was only for a stylistic choice (like what most Yoshi games do for example), rather than it ACTUALLY being a play. Super Mario World is also a literal direct follow up to Super Mario Bros. 3 (and the Sunken Ghost Ship is also confirmed to be a personal Airship Bowser took after the events of SMB3). I don’t see how it would be fan service by saying that a game that was established to be real in the timeline is just now all of a sudden a play. Personally, I am pretty sure Super Mario Bros. 3 is still canon and not a play, and what Myamoto said was just a stupid retcon. Also sure, we can rant about those things, you go first. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:45, March 7, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::Same here, I don't think that SMB3 was quite literally a play, I've always believed that the curtains and such were merely for aesthetic effect. Anyway, for Dr. Wily's video, I found two and decided to cover both, the two in question are the Piranha Plants and Cheep-Cheeps so here we go, to start off, I saw a quite a bit wrong with his video on the Cheep Cheeps, up until SM64, he got quite a bit right however he started making errors in that sector, while Cheep Cheeps do appear in ''Super Mario 64 DS'', they are completely absent from the original with Bubs in their place instead. Additionally, he refers to the Bubba as a Boss Bass despite it being a completely separate species, heck the Boss Bass doesn’t even appear in the remake instead the Big Bertha appears in his place. In the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' section, he seems to claim that the Kingfin is a Fishbone and that his Bonefin minions are 100% Fishbones even though they're clearly not, what I find even more ironic is he calls Kingfin a "Cheep-Cheep boss" even though he isn't even related to them in any way". For the Piranha Plants, he got a lot wrong in this video, to start off, he claims the SMB3 was the first game to create variants of enemies, this is actually false as ''SMB'' had [[Paratroopa]]s, a variant of [[Koopa Troopa]]s and ''SMB2'' had [[Kūchū Gessō]]s which are variants of [[Blooper]]s (or [[Bloober]]s as they were called prior to ''SMB3''). To start off this side of the rant, he refers to the [[Venus Fire Trap]]s as [[Fire Piranha Plant]]s (despite this name never being used for them in this game and that name only really applying to the black and orange variant which debuted in ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]''), he also refers to the [[Piranhacus Giganticus]] as "Big Piranha Plants" (a name for the [[Super Piranha Plant]] used in the NSMBU Prima Guide) despite the two being a completely separate species of large Piranha Plants with different behaviors (not to mention their Japanese names being different (similar to the [[Big Monty Mole]]s and [[Mega Monty Mole]])) and in the middle of all that, for the SMG section, he literally treats [[Dino Piranha]] and [[Peewee Piranha]] as being 100% the same and dismissing the egg shell as a mere design change despite their clear differences in behavior and names, not to mention that [[Dino Piranha]] LITERALLY APPEARS in ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'' as a separate boss. But yeah, those are those two videos, what did you think of this? Any Mario enemy-related errors or misconceptions on YouTube, we could rant about those. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 23:31, March 7, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::Yeah those two videos also seem pretty damn inaccurate (and ironically enough, both have a misconception that involved the Super Mario Galaxy games, like what is it with Super Mario Galaxy and enemy misconceptions). I think the Kingfin and Dino Piranha misconceptions are also extremely stupid, since unlike Monty Moles, Cheep Cheeps do appear in Mario Galaxy, so what he said with Kingfin is incredibly stupid (and like you said before, Dino Piranha is already in Galaxy 2, which basically confirms that Peewee Piranha is a different character). Yeah we can rant about more crappy Mario videos (I was thinking the two bad videos that ConnerTheWaffle made about the Mario timeline and Mario 64 being a "movie"), though something I do want to rant about is how some people treat the Airships being in Mario Galaxy as automatic proof that SMG Monty is 100% the exact same as Rocky Wrench (such as Dr. Wily and that Mario Monsters website). Not only is it clearly obvious that SMG Monty is a completely different Mole enemy that has no connections to Rocky Wrench besides a vaguely similar attack pattern, but SMG Monty doesn’t even appear in any of the Airship levels at all. So even if SMG Monty was theoretically a Rocky Wrench (which is extremely false), their point still makes no sense since SMG Monty doesn’t even appear in any of the Airship levels. It is very likely that Mario Galaxy wanted to bring back the Airship levels and just forgot to bring back Rocky Wrench (which they would later fix in New Super Mario Bros. Wii). Tell me what you think? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 01:33, March 8, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Also, what do you think of the Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten basically confirming that Monty Moles (alongside every other enemy in the beast clan category) were "Animals that have been magically turned into monsters." How would you interpret that? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 03:38, March 8, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Also is Monty Mole (or any other Monty Mole species member) FINALLY confirmed to be in the Mario movie yet (since a new trailer recently dropped? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 00:06, March 10, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I watched the trailer just now, we saw some Goombas, Spinies, and a Sledge Bro. but unfortunately, I didn't see any Monty Moles (hopefully they appear in the full movie however). I did think that was a bizarre discovery, maybe you could add that to the Iceberg. I agree with that, it's incredibly dumb how some people claim that Montys are Rocky Wrenches merely because of Bowser's Airships being in the game despite them not appearing on any Airships. Your point is much more solid than theirs. What did you think of the new trailer? [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 05:17, March 10, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Yeah I might add that discovery to the iceberg later. Also yeah, I agree my point is way more solid evidence, since the Airships in Mario Galaxy are nothing like the Super Mario Bros. 3 ones (and not because they are in 3D, since Super Mario 3D Land had traditional Airship levels). I wasn’t too big of a fan of the final trailer, since it just showed mostly stuff we already knew about the movie instead of focusing more on what species will appear in it (which makes me worried that they will only show generic enemies). Do you still think Monty Mole (or even Rocky Wrench) has a good chance of having a decent role in the actual movie (even if they weren’t in the trailers)? Speaking of which, if you go see the movie, mind telling me if Monty Mole or Rocky Wrench is in it? Anyways, wanna go rant about the two bad ConnerTheWaffle Mario vidoes (the Mario 64 movie and Mario timeline one)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 07:38, March 10, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Also why does the Super Mario Wiki have one of the German names for Undergrunt Gunner being the same as Monty Mole’s (despite the two being separate species)? Was this an error on the wiki’s part, or was this an accident made on some sort of German source? Either way, is this likely a mistake and not proof of the two being related? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 08:15, March 11, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::It's probably an error on their part (the SMW), even if the German name did use it, this further limits the two being related as it isn't an actual connection it's just something that the German Nintendo translators came up with (much like how in the French version of Rosalina's book, her father was stated to have a mustache (something that wasn't mentioned in neither the English nor Japanese versions)). When getting a source from another language, it's usually best to go with the Japanese version as that is what is what the creators actually intended (and since the Japanese version makes no connection between the two, they're not related). Sure we can rant about those, you start! [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 21:47, March 11, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Yeah I agree, it is likely untrue. Anyways for my rant on the timeline video, for some reason the video treats the original Super Mario Bros. as the first part of the Mario timeline. While it might be early in the timeline, it is untrue since there are plenty of games that take place in the far past (like most of the Yoshi titles, the early arcade titles, the live action segments in the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, and probably the upcoming Super Mario Bros. Movie). I am pretty sure I heard that Super Mario Bros. 2 likely did happen and it wasn’t just a dream, though I am unsure on how true that is so let me know more on that one. Anyways, Super Mario Bros. 3 is where the video gets ugly, as he treats that game as nothing more than just a "stage play for Mario to share his dreams." However, the events of Super Mario Bros. 3 are real, as Super Mario World is a direct followup and the kings returning in some of the manga (mainly the 4koma ones). The whole stage play thing is likely something that was meant to be an aesthetic choice (mainly for the opening) and not the events of the game being an actual stage play (especially since the two remakes mostly had less of the stage play aesthetic besides the opening). I know Myamoto said it was a stage play all along, but I think that was likely just a lousy retcon made by the fan misconceptions, as I am pretty sure none of the guidebooks or instruction manuals even implied that it was a stage play (and if anything, likely implied more that it was real events). Also the Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 clearly has the events of SMB3 being canon and it virtually has nothing to hint that it is a stage play (besides the opening curtains for each episode, which is likely more of a reference to SMB3 rather than it being a stage play). The video then claims that Super Mario Bros. 3 being a play was successful and that Super Mario 64 is a direct followup movie. This is even more stupid than the Super Mario Bros. 3 being a play thing, cause at least there was some evidence there, but there is literally no proof of Super Mario 64 being a movie. The video also puts Super Mario 64 before Super Mario World, despite YOSHI BEING A 100% REWARD (and him remembering Mario after the events of that game), and not to mention enemies from Super Mario World (like Monty Moles, Wigglers, and Swoopers) returning. The Lakitu Bros. having cameras was likely just a cute way to personify the in-game camera, and not imply the game was a movie. Also games like Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy 2, and Super Mario Odyssey have references to Super Mario 64 and treats the events of the game like they actually happened and weren’t just a movie. Super Mario 64 is clearly real and not a movie (even less than Super Mario Bros. 3 being a stage play). The video then treats Super Mario Sunshine as coming before Super Mario World (though it coming after Super Mario 64 is true), despite YOSHI BEING IN SUNSHINE AND ENEMIES FROM SUPER MARIO WORLD APPEARING IN THAT GAME AS WELL (like Monty Mole and Wiggler). Also I don’t think the events of Super Mario Sunshine happened because the "movie" was a success, but rather Mario is likely really rich due to him being a national hero in the kingdom, and thought that going on a vacation again (like what they did in Super Mario World) was a good idea. Also the video states the entire Yoshi’s Island series and Paper Mario series are nothing more than children’s books that he written, which like I said, is just him assuming an art style is literally what the game is meant to be like. Starting with Yoshi’s Island, there is literally nothing implying that those games are books, and rather it is just styled to be like a book to make the game pop-out more (and this could explain why Woolly World and Crafted World are also visually distinct). Also, the events of those games are canon to the main series, as characters like Poochy and Kamek do reappear in later titles (and Kamek also reappears in Mario Galaxy, which is shown later in the video, so how did he completely forget that)? The video then claims EVERY SINGLE MARIO SPINOFF is nothing more than just what Mario does due to being rich from his "fake" adventures, which is really stupid, since those games are more like what Mario and his friends (and enemies) likely due in their free time after doing the main adventures. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:35, March 12, 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, I have to continue my rant here since I was lagging, so hope you are cool with that. Anyways, a lot of those spinoffs (like post-2008) also have references to Super Mario Galaxy (most notably being Rosalina appearing in a lot of those spinoffs, despite her not meeting Mario until Super Mario Galaxy), yet the video acts like ALL OF THOSE SPINOFFS came before Super Mario Galaxy. The video then says that Super Mario Galaxy was the "full return of the real Bowser from the original Super Mario Bros." despite like NEARLY ALL OF THESE GAMES HAVING THE REAL BOWSER IN THEM. Most notably, Super Mario Sunshine had Bowser trying to sabotage Mario’s vacation, and that game was treated as real. Not to mention all the games he left out (which I will get back to later) and the spinoffs having Bowser in them, so Bowser was still around. Super Mario Galaxy is likely just another Bowser kidnapping Peach plot (just more edgy) and nothing more than that. Also the video constantly treats Super Mario Galaxy like it was the first time Mario fought Bowser since the original Super Mario Bros. despite all the other games existing. Speaking of which, Conner left out a lot of mainline Mario games like all the Super Mario Land and New Super Mario Bros. games, Super Mario World, Super Mario 3D Land and 3D World, among many more. I think he left out those games just to fit his extremely shallow narrative to make it seem more plausible, despite those games basically debunking a lot of his claims (especially the Bowser claims), and excluding these games causing a lot of plot holes (mainly Super Mario World, since that game introduced Yoshi and yet he completely forgets that 64 and Sunshine have Yoshi as well). The video also implies Mario meets Rosalina in Mario Galaxy, which ironically debunks his claims of every single spinoff coming prior (since Rosalina was in most of those spinoffs after Mario Galaxy). Also he implies that Super Mario Galaxy 2 is Bowser’s canon death, despite Bowser constantly surviving stuff like that (like in 3D Land when he fell into lava while getting hit in the head with debris), and Bowser comes back after Galaxy 2 anyways. Then Hotel Mario is treated as the last thing in the timeline as a joke, but that was pretty damn stupid (since Hotel Mario likely takes place as an in-between adventure). At least in the end of the video he admits the timeline was stupid as hell (which I can see why, since it had a lot of plot holes and contradictions and treated everything besides Super Mario Bros. and the Super Mario Galaxy games as being completely fake), so I will give points for him admitting that. Anyways, did I miss anything or do you want to add more to the conversation? Also, mind uploading the Rocky Wrench goggleless and Monty Mole skeleton (from Mario Strikers Charged) models to this wiki so I can see them for myself? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:54, March 12, 2023 (UTC)
:Oh and also the Monty Tank model as well? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:19, March 13, 2023 (UTC)
:From what I can see, the Instruction Manual, nor the three guides relating to the game make any indication that SMB3 is a stage play, his reasons for putting SMW after SM64 are incredibly flawed for the reasons you said combined with the fact that it's been constantly implied that SM64 takes place after SMW. Lakitu's camera I feel was merely for aesthetic effect and not to imply that the game was a movie. And that part on Yoshi's Island and Paper Mario being children's books is complete bs as Yoshi's Island is constantly referenced in later games. Him leaving out games is an extreme case of cherry picking and that is obviously not how good theories are made. Also, did the guy even watch the ending of SMG2, Bowser is shown alive and well in the credits (although tiny he's still alive). Also sorry that I haven't got around to that yet, I've been busy with many projects in real life but I will look around when I get the chance! [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 00:18, March 15, 2023 (UTC)
::I wasn’t even thinking about the ending of Super Mario Galaxy 2, but it makes the theory even more flawed. Conner at least admitted the theory was flawed as well, but it makes the whole theory pointless when you really think about it. Also the Super Mario Wiki treated Egg Pawn and Flapper as variants of Eggrobo and E-123 Omega as a notable member of Eggrobo (despite there being no confirmation that those badniks are related to Eggrobos). You agree that is pretty damn stupid? Also, wanna do a rant on [https://montymolefan.com/about-monty-mole this website] right here? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 02:24, March 16, 2023 (UTC)
:::Also, what do you think is the origins for Mawful Mole and Metal Mawful Mole? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 02:20, March 20, 2023 (UTC)
::::Also, also, what do you think about how Mario is treated this year so far (I am personally concerned to say the least)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 21:58, March 22, 2023 (UTC)
:::::Sorry for the late reply, I'm hoping we get some announcements after the Mario movie but I am concerned as well as we got absolutely nothing this Nintendo Direct (I can't believe some people even claim that it was the best Nintendo Direct ever as literally the only good thing that's not DLC we got that entire direct was Tears of the Kingdom (maybe Metroid too but I've personally never really been a Metroid guy) everything else was merely just Anime simulators and other stuff that literally nobody cares about that Nintendo seems to think that everyone is going to be jumping up and down for but Miyamoto did say [https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2023/02/miyamoto-nintendo-is-always-working-on-mario-but-isnt-ready-for-the-next-game-reveal-just-yet this] so that's comforting... I guess but again that was just one statement). Sure we can rant on that site, also, I'd say that the Mawful Mole and Metal Mawful Moles may've been a mutated version of Monty Mole of some kind that works alongside Fawful (possibly), there could be Metal variants of Monty Moles (like Metal Mario in SSB) but who knows. Also, yes I agree that that SMW misconception is stupid, we should add it to the list (I also added two more a couple days ago as well). [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 02:43, March 23, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah I am hoping that they will announce a new Mario game sometime after the movie releases (and I also hope the Mario movie is actually good). Also yeah I agree, the new Nintendo Direct was pretty bad (especially for Mario, since the only thing they announced for that besides the returning GBA games was a singular Mario Kart track). Also another misconception you should add is the Super Mario Wiki treating the sole name for Monty Moles in Super Mario Kart being "Gophers." While they were called gophers in the instruction manual, Monty Moles literally had their regale names being said by Nintendo Power and even the files of the game, so it seems like the Gopher name is most likely just one of those other names Monty Mole is called sometimes and not the name that is 100% given for them in Super Mario Kart. Also, we never really seen any metal Monty Moles, so my best guest is that Metal Mawful Moles are just either an upgraded or further mutated version of the regular Mawful Moles. Also Mawful Moles being a mutated Monty Mole species that Fawful somehow created makes some sort of sense, since the Monty Bros. never became Mawful Moles when joining Fawful and just remained as regular Monty Moles (and this was still kept in the remake as well). I will likely rant about that Monty Mole Fan website later, but what do you think is the most unreliable unofficial Mario source (I wouldn’t say Super Mario Wiki though, since that wiki is more just inconsistent (though it has been slowly getting less reliable as the months go by)). Also, do you still think there is a high chance the Monty Mole species will appear in the Super Mario Bros. Movie (since I am concerned that they won’t include them since they didn’t appear in any of the marketing)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:04, March 23, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks for the misconception idea, that is a dumb one, I could also add the other instances where they use instruction booklet names as well because there are a few but that one sticks out the most, I also fixed that misconception on the Nintendo Wiki which also included it, as for the least reliable Mario source, I would probably go with the English Mario Portal as that literally took names from the Super Mario Wiki and used incorrect names for a lot of enemies calling them by names that weren't used in the game in question or giving enemies names of a completely different enemy. The English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia also has it's issues but I feel that the English Mario Portal has just as much wrong with it as the English SMBE if not more but yeah, I agree that the SMW is becoming less reliable with them treating the EMP as a reliable source (despite it's insane number of errors) being one of the reasons, what do you think is the least reliable source for Mario? [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 10:59, March 23, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Yeah sure, feel free to write those misconceptions down when you get the chance. Also I agree, the Mario Portal is just completely unreliable and it made just as many (if not more) errors as the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, yet the Super Mario Wiki treats the Mario Portal like it is 100% reliable (like they seriously thought that the Mario Portal incorrectly calling Monty a Rocky Wrench was just an alternate name for them, despite it obviously being an error since the two are completely separate species). I know that some of the names aren’t as bad as others, but I don’t think we should trust an unreliable source like the Mario Portal, cause of all the errors and misinformation makes it feel too inconsistent to even trust anything there. As for what I think is the most unreliable source, I would probably say the [https://mariomonsters.com/ Mario Monsters] website, as it literally makes up stuff that isn’t true (like Mega Moles being discriminated, or Rocky Wrenches being fired for doing their attack method), or just gets stuff that is blatantly wrong (like saying the Undergrunts and Montys are 100% the exact same as Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench, despite the pages literally having contradictory statements that prove that they aren’t related or the same). Wanna go check out that website and tell me what other crap it got wrong (or add fuel to the fire on telling me which Monty Mole species page they got the most wrong and why)? Also, do you still think there is a chance that the Monty Mole species will appear in the Super Mario Bros. Movie (since I am concerned that there is a chance they won’t, since none of the marketing showed any member of the Monty Mole species)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 21:56, March 23, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Anyways, how likely do you think it would be for Monty Mole (or Rocky Wrench) to be in the Super Mario Bros. Movie? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 21:48, March 27, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Sorry for the late reply, I do believe that there is a fair chance we may see Monty Moles appearing in the movie, but yeah, it is very stupid how the Super Mario Wiki treats the EMP as being reliable, heck, they did the same thing with Mecha-Bowser where they listed "Mechakoopa" (his name on the EMP) as an alternate name for him despite Mechakoopa obviously being a false name that was most likely lost in translation. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 04:31, March 29, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::Alright, once the movie does release, do you mind telling me if the Monty Mole species appears in it? Also, is the reason why the Monty Mole species not being shown in any of the marketing was likely because of them wanting to focus more on the main cast rather than most of the other species for the marketing (and does this apply for other Mario games)? Also Mecha-Bowser having Mechakoopa being listed as an alternate name is pretty damn stupid, since they clearly aren’t a Mechakoopa (it is like if you said Big Montgomery was just a regular Monty Mole). Also, has there been any confirmation that the Micro Mecha-Bowsers are related to Mechakoopas or not? Another stupid thing the Super Mario Wiki did that was similar to your example was when they treated Monty (from Super Mario Galaxy) being incorrectly called Rocky Wrench in the Mario Portal like it was an alternate name for them (despite it obviously being a mistranslation or an error, as the SMG Montys share no connections to Rocky Wrench besides their comparable attack pattern). Also, do you think that Monty having a similar attack pattern to Rocky Wrench was likely just them being loosely inspired by Rocky Wrench, but still being an unrelated and separate species not affiliated with the Monty Mole species? Anyways, can I rant about the Monty Mole Fan website next? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 05:34, March 29, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::Sure! Also, I checked out the Mario Monsters site, man is there a ton of errors. First of all, it outright claims that King Kaliente is a Blooper, even though he clearly shares no resemblance to them (although his beta name was King Magma Blooper, the game's final build cut out any relation to Bloopers he may've once had). Next, they claim that the Bats from SMG are actually Swoopers even though those Bats look nothing like Swoopers. There's many more. Yeah I was aware of that, there are heaps more example like they even renamed the Silver Chomp to Homing Chomp due to the latter being used on the English Mario Portal despite the Silver Chomp name LITERALLY BEING USED IN THE GAME. I would believe that the Monty's attacks are likely inspired by the Rocky Wrench but the two obviously have no connections whatsoever. Also, sure you can rant about that. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 07:59, March 29, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Yeah the Mario Monsters site calling King Kalliente a Blooper is really stupid, what is with Super Mario Galaxy enemies and stupid misconceptions? As for the Monty Mole Fan Website, yeah there is a ton of errors. For some minor mistakes, it says the Monty Mole’s cannon in Super Mario Sunshine is a tank (despite it never being referred to as such), and both the Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe sections fail to mention that Monty Moles also appeared in Donut Plains 3, not just Moo Moo Meadows. The Mario Party 10 section also uses weird edited art of Mario Party: Island Tour instead of the actual box art, and the section also fails to mention that the Monty Mole in that game is named Mega Monty Mole and is a notable member and not just a generic member of the species. The Super Mario 3D Land section should have also mentioned Morty Mole as well, since that is a pretty notable thing from that game. Outside of those smaller errors, there are two extremely major errors the website made. First of all, the website forgets a ton of the spinoffs that Monty Moles appears in, like literally every single Mario Kart prior to Mario Kart Wii (and also Mario Kart 7, but that game only had Monty Mole as a cameo role excluding the fact Rocky Wrench appears in that game), every single Mario Party except Mario Party 10 and Super Mario Party, the first Paper Mario (despite Origami King being listed on the page), literally every single Mario & Luigi, Yoshi, and sports title, among probably some other examples I forgot to mention. The second and worst error is unsurprisingly something to do with Super Mario Galaxy. The site treats Major Burrows like he is THE EXACT SAME as a regular Monty Mole (not even a notable member, just a standard Monty Mole) and only says that their difference is the name (as the Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Super Mario 3D All Stars sections literally call Major Burrows just a Monty Mole). Not only is this completely stupid (as Major Burrows shares literally nothing with Monty Moles besides them both being moles), but he forgets to mention the other Undergrunt species and treats Major Burrows like the only mole in the entire game (which is also false). I feel like this person just looked at a few youtube videos and did some quick research on more of the recent Monty Mole appearances (which explains why he treats Major Burrows as a regular Monty Mole and forgets a ton of spinoff appearances), and did not do any deep research at all besides the very basic info. I don’t hate this person or anything, but for a website made by a Monty Mole fan, it is very poorly made and researched. Anyways, what do you think about the website? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:03, March 29, 2023 (UTC)
:The site seems like it’s full of errors and misconceptions, it’s crazy how they made a Monty Mole fan site but yet don’t know basic information about the Monty Mole species, I would like to see the site as well to see how wrong they are, do you have a link? [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 03:49, April 2, 2023 (UTC)
== Monty Mole in Super Mario Bros. Movie? ==
I found this weird cast listing for the Super Mario Bros. Movie [https://m.imdb.com/list/ls567396371/ right here] and I was wondering if this is actually real or just some fanmade one (since this listing does list Monty Mole in it)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:47, March 31, 2023 (UTC)
:IMDB isn’t really a reliable source so I’m not 100% sure as anyone can edit the site, for one example, for this show I watch on Nickelodeon, a bunch of different characters and cast members were added to a then-unreleased episode (one of which hadn’t appeared since Season 1, said character is the one used on my profile picture on Wikia/Fandom). None of them ended up appearing in the episode but yeah I could check it out and determine the legitimacy. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 03:49, April 2, 2023 (UTC)
::I think it is a good idea to check if that source is reliable or not (and regardless of its legitimacy, do you still think the Monty Mole species has a chance to appear in the movie)? Also, [https://montymolefan.com/about-monty-mole here is the link to the website], so if you see any other errors please let me know. Some good news though is that I talked to the creator of the site, and they might improve it, so I hope that does eventually happen. I still don’t get why the creator was so insist on Major Burrows being a Monty Mole cause other people said it, the reason why crap like that is a misconception is because of people spreading misinformation of a certain topic and people thinking the misconception is the truth (and the Undergrunt species is the perfect example of this). Nintendo never made a single official connection between Major Burrows and Monty Moles, and Major Burrows is clearly the leader of an entirely separate unrelated mole species, so Major Burrows being a Monty Mole makes litterally no sense whatsoever. Anyways, what do you think of the site? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:21, April 2, 2023 (UTC)
::I just checked the site now, I think it’s incredibly silly how they claimed Major Burrows is 100% a Monty Mole and treats Mega Monty Mole as a generic Monty Mole, some sections are also incomplete and lack information such as the SM3DL section. I also find it mind boggling how they included every game (even a stack of ports) but they couldn’t include SM64DS despite Monty Moles having a role in that game as well (this might be silly but I do get triggered when others practically ignore SM64DS's existence all while treating FULL ON PORTS like they’re 100% games that are apart of the series despite SM64DS having more to offer than an average port and even getting it’s own Wikipedia page (something most ports/remakes don’t get)) but yeah hopefully he makes those improvements. Yeah that can be the case sometimes, when someone tells a lie or an assumption and repeats it over and over, people eventually start believing that lie/assumption as the truth (in some cases, even the messenger may believe it themselves). Major Burrows is definitely not the leader of the Monty Moles as he’s the leader of the Undergrunts (an unrelated species), I even saw some erroneous page (I think it was on deviant art where someone did a graph of all the enemies and their respective leaders and they put Major Burrows for the Monty Moles (despite that obviously being false and get this, for the Swooper, they put Antasma despite him being an entirely unrelated Bat species). [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 22:14, April 3, 2023 (UTC)
:::Yeah I don’t get why Super Mario 64 DS is treated lesser. Personally, I think that game is on a similar level to the Super Mario Advance tetralogy or Super Mario All-Stars, where it is still the same game, but with updated graphics and additional content or extra changes to make it stand on its own. Stuff like New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe and Super Mario 3D World + Bowser’s Fury (besides the Bowser’s Fury stuff) feel more like just glorified ports with a few extra things tacked onto it. I don’t get why something like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe (which was barely any different from the original Wii U version until 2022) is treated more than a full on remake. Yeah, I do agree that the 3D Land sections is extremely unfinished, since it should at the very least note Morty Mole’s existence or something. I do hope that the person does eventually improve these sections to actually make them good. Also, the fact someone said Antasma was the leader of the Swoopers was extremely stupid, cause Antasma shares nothing with Swoopers whatsoever. Also, the stupidest thing about Major Burrows being called the Monty Mole leader is that we [[King Choropū|already technically have a Monty Mole leader]], even if it went unused (and this beta for Paper Mario: Sticker Star was likely developed at least a few years after Super Mario Galaxy released, so they likely knew Major Burrows was a completely separate mole species and instead made an actual Monty Mole king). Also, what do you think of [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR3ePrcog10 this video] and what errors did this video have (I know one, but I will let you find out that one yourself). [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:37, April 3, 2023 (UTC)
:::I watched the video just now, one error I found was that it referred to the Bubba as a Boss Bass despite them being two separate species (hey, at least it doesn't make the error of claiming that the Mega Cheep Cheep is a Boss Bass). Another error I spotted was that Major Burrows was in the Monty Mole section even though he's clearly not a Monty Mole. Also, I noticed that the video took a whole stack of names from the Super Mario Wiki (some of which were from the NSMBU Prima Guide but hey, at least it didn't use names from the English Mario Portal (mostly because the video was uploaded before the EMP)). [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 01:10, April 4, 2023 (UTC)
::::I am surprised there wasn’t more errors, but the fact they put Major Burrows in the Monty Mole section is completely stupid (like if you wanted to showcase a powerful Monty Mole boss, show the one from Sunshine or Monty Tank, not a completely unrelated mole boss that looks or acts nothing like Monty Mole). Anyways, do you know any other really stupid Monty Mole species misconceptions like the Undergrunt one? Also, what do you think about the fact that the Presenters from the original Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga were treated the exact same as Monty Moles for years, and then the Monty Moles in the 3Ds remake were treated as a redesign of Presenter (despite Play Nintendo clearly calling the ones in the remake ad Monty Moles)? Also, since the Super Mario Bros. Movie is coming out soon, tell me how likely you think the Monty Mole species will appear in it (since they were not seen in any of the marketing for some reason)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:41, April 4, 2023 (UTC)
:::::Anyways, since the Super Mario Bros. Movie likely has came out when I wrote this thing, does the movie have Monty Mole species in it? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:16, April 5, 2023 (UTC)
::::::I just watched the movie today, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the movie didn't have a single [[Monty Mole]] or [[Rocky Wrench]] in it. They weren't the only enemies to not be in the movie, [[Podoboo]]s didn't appear in the movie either (despite there being heaps of lava in the movie, not a single Podoboo was seen either), aside from [[King Boo]], no [[Boo]]s were seen in the movie, [[Fuzzy|Fuzzies]] didn't appear in the movie, unless I'm missing something I don't think [[Chain Chomp]]s did either. [[Swooper]]s weren't in the movie but rather the [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|Bats]] from ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'' [[Lakitu]]s, [[Buzzy Beetle]]s, [[Spike Top]]s, [[Wiggler]]s, [[Pokey]]s, [[Thwomp]]s, [[Scuttlebug]]s, [[Whomp]]s, [[Amp]]s, [[Broozer]]s, [[Fishing Boo]]s, [[Urchin]]s, [[Venus Fire Trap]]s, and more weren't in the movie. The enemies that did end up appearing were, [[Goomba]]s, [[Koopa Troopa]]s, [[Paratroopa]]s, [[Bob-omb]]s, [[Spiny|Spinies]], [[Piranha Plant]]s, [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|Bats]], [[Shy Guy]]s, [[Snifit]]s, [[Dry Bones]], [[Bullet Bill]]s, [[Banzai Bill]]s, [[Biddybud]]s, [[Bramball]]s, [[Cheep Cheep]]s, [[Blooper]]s, [[Blooper Nanny|Blooper Nannies]], [[Baby Blooper]]s, a giant [[Maw-Ray]], [[King Bob-omb]], and [[King Boo]]. [[Yoshi]]s didn't really appear much either aside from a couple cameos but other than that, I actually really enjoyed the movie (maybe we will get the Monty Moles in a potential sequel). I agree with that, it's silly how people thought that Presenters were the exact same as Monty Moles, I mean they could've given them a separate page but nope (hell, this was before the remake, in the original, they hardly look like Monty Moles). I honestly don't get how we're the only ones that've seen that Play Nintendo confirmation. It really goes to show how oblivious some people are and that they don't do any research. Like they do the same with many guides where they never source it being completely oblivious of the source's presence. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 11:15, April 7, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I know Chain Chomps and Buzzy Beetles did appear in some of the marketing, but they must’ve had either an extremely minor role, or were not in the actual final movie. Yeah I knew the Monty Mole species was sadly not in the movie (like, was there really any cave or mountain area at all), and the fact that all those species couldn’t appear kind of feels lazy (like how can you have lots of lava but no Podoboos). There was only like four species in the entire movie that felt like obscure and interesting picks (Bramball, Biddybud, the Mario Galaxy Bats, and Maw-Ray), the rest just seems like the typical generic enemy affair with nothing interesting besides overusing Koopa Troopas, Goombas, Piranha Plants, and Shy Guys, rather than including a variety of species. I kind of felt like they really only did that just for marketing and laziness (hence why most of the references and species are generic or overused). The Mario movie had a lot of potential to be creative, yet they just chose the generic route (they could have even had obscure long lost enemies like Mega Mole or Blargg return). I am also confused on why King Boo is in the movie, but not any regular Boos (which is dumb cause Boo is a well known species), and from what I heard, King Boo (alongside King Bob-omb) don’t really do anything besides appearing because reference. The bats from Mario Galaxy are also extremely weird to put in the movie, since not only is it a species not even some Mario fans recognize, but it kind of breaks the continuity (cause it is implied that most Super Mario Galaxy enemies are completely different due to exclusively living in space or other far away regions, but the bats appearing instead of Swooper just makes no sense, it would be like if Undergrunts appeared in the movie instead of Monty Mole). Speaking of continuity, from what I saw, I am pretty sure this movie breaks a lot of the pre established continuity the Mario series had (if you want, you can list some examples). Also Yoshi being regulated to minor cameos and a post credits scene is kind of stupid, since Yoshi is literally one of the most recognizable Mario characters. I guess the positive is that this might mean the sequel will be like Super Mario World, which has a lot of potential, instead of just being scattered shot with random areas from the series. As for the Presenter stuff, I still don’t get how people for years thought Presenters were the exact same as Monty Mole (they were only referred to as just moles in the two English guidebooks). Obviously they were a variant of Monty Mole, but they weren’t the exact same (hell, they look way more like Mega Mole than Monty Mole). Also, I didn’t even know about the Play Nintendo thing until I just searched Monty Mole in Play Nintendo and found that massive lore drop lol (and due to most games by the Superstar Saga 3DS remake’s time not getting guidebooks, I think this might be our only confirmation. Hell, I could not even find a Japanese guidebook from what I researched). If you were wondering, the other Play Nintendo stuff on the site didn’t have as much Monty Mole species lore drops outside of that particular one for the Superstar Saga 3DS remake. I still don’t get why the Super Mario Wiki constantly treats unreliable sources like Mario Portal and even sometimes the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia (the latter they know is unreliable), yet they can’t look at Play Nintendo to find out that the "Presenters" in the 3DS remake of Superstar Saga are just regular Monty Moles that replaced them (similar to the generic enlarged Koopa Troopas replacing Ankoopas in the remake). The Monty Moles in the Superstar Saga remake aren’t even redesigns of Presenter like what the Super Mario Wiki treats them as (unlike Mawful Mole (and their metal variant) in the BIS 3DS remake, since both the original and remake of BIS had both regular Monty Moles (in the form of the Monty Bros.) and Mawful Moles in the exact same game, unlike Superstar Saga, where the original had an entirely new Monty Mole species, and the remake just had generic Monty Moles instead). Considering the Super Mario Wiki, it is very likely that they will just say that the "Presenters" in the 3DS remake being called Monty Mole is just an alternate name for them (like when they thought SMG Monty being incorrectly called a Rocky Wrench by the English Mario Portal was just an alternate name for them). [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 14:26, April 7, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Does the Super Mario Bros. Movie contradict and retcon the preexisting Mario lore (and is it even canon or just an AU)? Also what about I said previously as well? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:03, April 10, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Sorry for the late reply, sure you could list some examples. Also, yeah, guidebooks have kind of been dying down in general over the past several years in fact, the ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' Prima Guide was the first Prima Guide since ''[[Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U]]'' in 2014 (so to think that Prima never released a new Mario guide in almost three years (despite a couple coverable games being released in between September 2014 and April 2017) is just crazy. I don't get how they couldn't've come to that conclusion, they know the Ankoopas and Gargantua Koopa Troopas are different yet they treat the 3DS Monty Moles as a mere redesign to Presenters. It's honestly ironic how they treat those as reliable sources now whilst ignoring several Prima Guides, Nintendo Power, in-game names (one was with ''[[Super Princess Peach]]'' with the [[Vibe Crystal]]s) and the aforementioned Play Nintendo as well. Yeah, the points you brought up were very valid however the Super Mario Wiki usually tends to twist logic and create some form of an inaccuracy. Also, yeah, King Boo and King Bob-omb mainly made a minor cameo in one key scene (which I won't spoil in case you haven't seen the movie) but yeah, them claiming that "Rocky Wrench" is an alternate name for [[Monty]] is incredibly stupid as it's obviously an error and not an official alt. name for the enemy. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 12:54, April 12, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Yeah it makes no sense why the Monty Moles in the 3DS remake of Superstar Saga are treated like a redesign for Presenter on the Super Mario Wiki, meanwhile the enlarged Koopa Troopas in the same remake are considered different from Ankoopas. The reason why it is obvious that Mawful Mole had a redesign in the BIS remake and wasn’t just replaced was because they still had the green Fawful-like cap thing, and regular Monty Moles (in the form of the Monty Bros.) do appear in BIS. I am really not a fan of the Super Mario Bros. Movie, as it just feels kind of generic and basic and it overuses generic enemy species, has references for the sake of references with no substance, and contradicts stuff established in the games for no reason. Should we rant about all the continuity errors the Super Mario Bros. Movie made? Oh also, originally, the Super Mario Wiki said that Monty Mole Patches looked exactly like the Monty Mole jumping sprite seen in Super Mario World, but it literally doesn’t (especially since Monty Mole Patch uses the modern Monty Mole design), you agree? Also, wanna write more misconceptions in the misconception page? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:36, April 12, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::Also, you agree that [[https://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:List_of_implied_characters#Monty_Mole_king this decision made right here] was extremely stupid and it felt like the Super Mario Wiki team not reading the manga and making assumptions? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 05:18, April 14, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Sure! I've got a couple ideas ready. Also, I honestly think that it's stupid that they treat the King Monty Mole as an implied character as he is literally shown in the comics. I honestly thought that page was reserved for characters we NEVER see but now they're using it for these reasons. They just get dumber and dumber, in fact I heard that if stuff like this keeps up, the SMW will get so unreliable that it will be viewed as a joke that people don't take seriously. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 03:10, April 17, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::The Monty Mole king wasn’t shown in the comics, just briefly mentioned once in Super Mario-kun volume 5, but I still get your point. This is likely just the Super Mario Wiki being stupid once again, like them merging Petey Piranha’s sludge balls with Glorpedos and the generic pushing platforms in Tick Tock Clock with Bomps (despite neither of them having any connections whatsoever). Yeah, it seems like if this crap keeps piling up, the wiki will just become more and more unreliable (since the Super Mario Wiki is literally hypocritically using names from the Mario Portal, which has a crap ton of errors, as well as the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia (which they know is unreliable) for no reason). Anyways, I was thinking of any other wikis that are bad due to strict and corrupt higher ups or low quality info (like the Super Mario Wiki)? Oh also, is the Super Mario Bros. Movie an AU, cause that movie has a crap ton of continuity errors and overall just feeling like the people didn’t know the story of Mario and instead just cramming in as many surface level references as possible (like why are Super Mario Galaxy elements here when Mario hasn’t even seen stuff like Lumas yet, and why are King Bob-mob and King Boo here if they do nothing but just further retcon established info and be in the background of a scene only for a reference and nothing else)? Sorry, I just absolutely loathe the Super Mario Bros. Movie (due to how generic and play it safe it is, as well as it having an incoherent plot, bad voice acting, forgettable humor, little enemy variety and overusing the same few species, cheap and shallow references only there to make the movie seem better than it actually is, ruining and retconning established Mario lore, everything feeling like an absolute slog of nothing but random crap happening for no reason just cause, among other problems I have with the movie), though I don’t mind if you enjoyed it, but I am wondering if you agreed or disagreed with any of my criticisms here? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:28, April 17, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Also, what is with Super Mario Galaxy and having more enemy misconceptions than any other Mario game (stuff like people saying the Undergrunts are species of Monty Mole, despite there being little to no evidence on that being true). Also what are the top five worst Mario Galaxy enemy misconceptions? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 15:50, April 22, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Also, wanna help add more misconceptions soon? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:26, April 26, 2023 (UTC)
:Yeah I agree, like they recently renamed Prince Froggy to Froggy (which is actually a nickname and not his actual name, I remember it was renamed once before in early 2015, I ended up changing it back not long before the final ban but it seems as though they changed it back almost as if they can’t understand the concept between a full name, a nickname, and a new/old name). I do feel the movie could’ve added more enemies (although aside from that I enjoyed it), maybe we will see some more enemies in the sequel. That'd have to do with the Super Mario Wiki thinking everything is oddly connected for some reason. Like they claim Undergrunts and Monty Moles are connected despite no evidence suggesting this, the worst would have to be the Undergrunt/Monty Mole one that was mentioned, they claimed that the Spiders in the game are Scuttlebugs, oh oh and we can’t forget the Bats being Swoopers. Initially, they also had the Crabber page merged with the generic crab page as well (this is understandable as they were simply known as "Crabs" in the first game and the Crabber name debuted in SMG2). [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 23:09, April 30, 2023 (UTC)
== King Choropū ==
How do you feel about the fact that the Super Mario Wiki treated the King Choropū’s mention in volume 5 of Super Mario-kun as just them referring to Bowser, you think it is just another moment of Super Mario Wiki not understanding the manga? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 20:08, April 29, 2023 (UTC)
:I think that it is a dumb mistake on their part. Like they really don’t understand basic translations. This reminds me of the time where they thought that the Fire Chains mentioned in the MK8D Prima Guide were the Rings of Fire despite the fact that the guide was actually referring to the Firebars (with Fire Chain apparently being an alternate name for them). [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 23:09, April 30, 2023 (UTC)
::I feel like the point of the different Super Mario Galaxy enemies was likely due to them wanting to make different unrelated enemy species instead of just using the established ones (for example, the Undergrunts were likely made to be just a separate mole enemy specifically for the Mario Galaxy games with no real major connections to the Monty Mole species (unlike something like Ragumo, which is a confirmed relative to the Monty Mole species)). However, I feel like people on the internet, plus the wikis at the time really wanted to insist that these Mario Galaxy enemies were either related or the exact same as the established species (that is why that stupid Undergrunts being Monty Moles misconception exists). Yeah, it seems like the Super Mario Wiki loves merging stuff for the sake of it and trying to act like it is the exact same as an entirely separate thing (this is most prevalent with the Glorpedo and Bomp pages, since the wiki insists that these generic objects are the exact same as named enemies from the exact same game). Any other examples you can think of the Super Mario Wiki not understanding simple stuff like this (and the King Choropū stuff)? Also, I found this German Mario guide on Internet Archive that I think says Rocky Wrench is a Koopa? [https://archive.org/details/super-mario-power/page/14/mode/2up here is a link to it], just tell me what this guide is trying to say (you could use a translating app and copy the text down if you need to) and tell me what you think about it. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 00:33, May 1, 2023 (UTC)
::Here's the translation, I'm not sure what it's trying to get at since the Rocky Wrenches literally have shells in the game (and the artwork): "Ever since he lost his shell, this koopa tortoise has been throwing wrenches. Bowser likes this!". Anyway, one example I can think of is that they still cite the English Mario Portal as a reliable source without realizing that about over half the names used on there were taken from their site (yet they immediately picked up the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia doing just that and disavowed them for it). I also hate how they literally favor the NSMBU Prima Guide above every other source despite it being the most dubious of the Prima Guides, heck, for the Lava Rocks, they use the "Volcanic Debris" name from the NSMB2 Prima Guide as their name despite that only being used in said guide, and them not resembling debris in most games (such as SM3DW, MKW, MK8, MK8D, etc. where they're called Lava Fireballs). For the MKSC section, they referred to them as Lava Boulders (as stated in the Prima Guide for that game) yet referred to them as "Volcanic Debris" in the MKW section (refusing to acknowledge the MKW Prima Guide) despite them never being referred to as such in said game, don't get me started on how they messed up all the large Cheep Cheep pages by merging each and every one with different types (the timeline for this goes way down) and the whole Spinner VS Ball 'n' Chain thing which I've mentioned hundreds of times, their renaming tendencies are no better, I could go over a whole list of examples. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 03:11, May 1, 2023 (UTC)
:::Yeah those are some pretty bad examples of the Super Mario Wiki being really stupid. I also hate how hypocritical the Super Mario Wiki is for being so dumb to not realize how unreliable the Mario Portal is and prioritizing it over any other source (like remember what happened with Snuffit and Swoopin Stu). I also seen that the Super Mario Wiki is hypocritically having pages being named from the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia despite them knowing how unreliable that source is. I think one of the dumbest things that the Mario Wiki did for Mario Portak was treating stuff like it incorrectly calling the SMG Monty as Rocky Wrench as just an alternate name for them (despite them calling out the English Super Mario Encyclopedia for calling them a Monty Mole), and treating the Mario Portal reusing the Japanese names for enemies (mainly from Super Mario Land 2) as the 100% official English names for those enemies (despite the English Super Mario Encyclopedia doing the same thing and getting called out for it). Oh also, should the German Super Mario Power guide be sourced as an official piece of media that actually referred to Rocky Wrench as a turtle, and if so, mind putting it as a source in the Rocky Wrench and updating the list of misconceptions page to note this fact (though it is weird how the German Super Mario Power guide acted like Rocky Wrench lost their shell in SMB3, despite them not really losing their shell until New Super Mario Bros. Wii. There is also the minor continuity error on it saying that they started throwing wrenches AFTER they lost their shell, despite Rocky Wrenches throwing wrenches in most media that also depicts them with their shells. What do you think about that minor continuity error)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:53, May 1, 2023 (UTC)
::::Mind helping add the Rocky Wrench being related to Koopas info from the German Super Mario Power guide to both the Rocky Wrench and Koopa pages? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 00:28, May 3, 2023 (UTC)
:::::Sure! I do think it is a strange error as at the time, they had Shells in all official media, unless the author of the guide somehow has psychic powers, I'm not sure. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 23:47, May 3, 2023 (UTC)
::::::Maybe it was likely just a minor mistake that author made, but I am still pretty sure the book is still most likely reliable and canon (unlike the Mario Portal). Anyways, good luck with adding the Koopa info to the Rocky Wrench page. Also, what is your opinion on the Badniks from Sonic? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 00:06, May 4, 2023 (UTC)
== idk when i'll get around to continuing but ==
Hopefully soon I can resume getting this wiki up to speed again. I know it's designed after classic Super Mario Wiki, but if you think about it, this wiki has more in common with the MarioWiki on Fandom. :P [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 13:57, May 5, 2023 (UTC)
:So hopefully you will be able to update these pages faster? Oh also, aren’t you going to get those Tower of Yikk screenshots soon? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:06, May 5, 2023 (UTC)
::I can't because DS emu not working, sorry [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 22:48, May 5, 2023 (UTC)
:::Aw, okay. Also, anything I can do to help improve more Monty Mole species pages? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:04, May 5, 2023 (UTC)
::::I think you did pretty good thus far. [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 23:37, May 5, 2023 (UTC)
:::::It'd be good as a combination of both. Yeah, I’ve been needing to ready some pages for a while now. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 04:08, May 6, 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yeah I agree, also mind helping add the Super Mario Power source to the Rocky Wrench and Koopa page to source that Rocky Wrenches are related to Koopas? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:30, May 6, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::You agree that the Super Mario Bros. Movie is not canon (due to the many contradictions and lore it breaks, unlike the DiC cartoons and the manga)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:05, May 11, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Sorry for the late reply, yeah sure! Also, I believe that the Super Mario Bros. Movie takes place in a separate universe to the Mario games not only with the contradictions to the lore but some of the personality differences (like for example Bowser is close to being a pure evil in the movie whereas in the games, he wasn't as extreme), the characters looking strikingly different, and more. For this wiki, I am in favor of creating separate pages for the movie incarnations of the characters (like how Mario Wikia has done it as well as the Heroes and Villains Wikis). [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 02:48, May 16, 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I agree with what you said, though I still think the movie incarnation characters can still share the same page. Also, mind helping with that German Super Mario Power guide Rocky Wrench source that said that they were related to Koopas? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 03:03, May 16, 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Here is the [https://archive.org/details/super-mario-power/page/14/mode/2up link] to the source I was talking about. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 03:38, May 16, 2023 (UTC)
== Misconception continuation ==
Wanna help continue the misconceptions page? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 21:09, May 23, 2023 (UTC)
:You agree that this wiki has not had any substantial edits as of recently (likely due to the mediocre-bad Mario products in recent times)? Also, this video [https://youtu.be/sciGTnUqU28 right here] at the 8:08 mark for some reason says that this random painting is meant to be a stylized picture of Monty Mole. Is this true or just a weird assumption this guy made? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 02:32, May 28, 2023 (UTC)
::That is fair to say, also looking at it now, the painting bears very little resemblance to a Monty Mole, also, sure! I'd be down for that, sorry if I haven't been as active here lately, I've been wrapped with other projects. [[User:The RPG Gamer|The RPG Gamer]] ([[User talk:The RPG Gamer|talk]]) 04:32, May 28, 2023 (UTC)
:::Yeah that is why I questioned it. If anything, it could also be a painting of a dog or something, as Monty Mole doesn’t even make any physical appearance in the movie so it would be weird if that one random painting in the real world was just a picture of a Monty Mole. Anyways, thanks for helping out with the wiki, do you mind also trying to add some extra stuff to the Monty Mole species pages as well? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 04:43, May 28, 2023 (UTC)
== New sorting method ==
Hello! I've sprung back into action here. If it's okay with you, I updated the style guide here to say that ''Mario'' franchise appearances are covered in History section (''Mario'' takes priority because this is first and foremost a ''Mario'' wiki) whilst the others go into their respective sections (''Yoshi'' appearances, ''Wario'' appearances, Crossover appearances, so forth). Check the [[Rex]], [[Goomba]], and [[1-Up Mushroom]] articles as an example. It just has really begun to bug me when people try to call it all ''Mario''.
I also gave [[Mario (franchise)#Related franchises and series|this section]] of the ''Mario'' franchise page a bit of an update, and you'll notice I said that ''Donkey Kong'' is "partnered" as ''Mario Bros.'' for Game & Watch is the real first game with ''Mario'' in the title, but ''Donkey Kong'' arcade game is his first starring role as protagonist. Alongside ''Donkey Kong'', you will also see ''The Legend of Zelda''. I feel incredibly proud of what I typed up, so I'll relay it here for you:
"The [[The Legend of Zelda (franchise)|''The Legend of Zelda'' franchise]] is closely related to the ''Mario'' franchise, although its relation is more subtle and different than with the ''Donkey Kong'' franchise. ''The Legend of Zelda'' began in 1987, with the release of the titular game of the [[The Legend of Zelda|same name]]. The game was developed concurrently alongside ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'', and since then, a mainline ''[[Super Mario (series)|Super Mario]]'' platforming game has often been developed concurrently with a ''[[The Legend of Zelda (series)|The Legend of Zelda]]'' game, such as ''[[Super Mario 64]]'' with ''[[The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time]]''. Sometimes, ''Mario'' concepts were originally intended for ''The Legend of Zelda'', such as [[Fire Bar]]s. ''Mario'' enemies such as [[Chain Chomp]]s, [[Bob-omb]]s, and [[Thwomp]]s have commonly appeared throughout the 2D ''The Legend of Zelda'' games. Furthermore, variants of ''Mario'' enemies exclusively appear in the ''The Legend of Zelda'' franchise, such as [[Manhandla]]s, a large [[Piranha Plant]] variant that debuted in the first ''The Legend of Zelda'', comparable to how [[Pouncer]]s, a Thwomp variant in ''[[Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3]]'', have not appeared outside the ''Wario'' games. Similarly, [[Octoomba]]s, a variant of ''The Legend of Zelda''{{'}}s [[Octorok]], have not appeared outside the ''Mario'' franchise. ''The Legend of Zelda'' can be considered one step away from being a ''Mario'' spinoff, and it even had an [[The Legend of Zelda (television)|animated television show]] included as part of ''[[The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!]]''."
''Yoshi'' games introduced many Shy Guys, such as [[Fly Guy]]s and [[Lantern Ghost]]s (latter hardly appears outside the ''Yoshi'' games), Pouncers only appear in the first ''Wario Land'', Manhandlas and similar are recurring throughout ''The Legend of Zelda'' but not Mario, Octoombas do not appear in ''Zelda'' games. Literally the same situation between the few. I'm not trying to convince, it's just that I'm just ranting because the similarities between ''Mario'' and ''The Legend of Zelda'' connections are just like ''Mario'' to ''Yoshi'' and ''Wario'' each. The ''Donkey Kong'' series and its continued ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' series also takes elements from ''Mario'' franchise at times.
Hope you like these improvements! [[User:Bawitdaba|Bawitdaba]] ([[User talk:Bawitdaba|talk]]) 18:52, October 23, 2023 (UTC)
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